Tuesday, November 24th, 2009...6:38 pm
Not a Dream! Not an Imaginary Tale!
So here it is, and it must be seen to be believed.
I’m struck by the anger and bluster over a totally made up list of factoids. Sums up my trouble with the conversation on the right these days. Add to that the needless slap at folks of a different sexual orientation plus the apparent inability to hear and understand an objection from the other side, and you have a summary of what passes for discussion at the state legislature.
It would be nearly worthless to respond to his “facts,” but Le Templar has a good take down of one: the state can’t go into receivership. I wouldn’t expect most people to know this, but a guy that has been in the legislature for years ought to have his handle on a fact or two.
Keep something important in mind here: this is not some eccentric back bencher who is barely tolerated by his colleagues (nor is this the first insulting rant he has had). He is a committee chairman (Environment), a position that the leadership of his caucus thought he was well suited for. Other parts of our capitol power structure have propped him up too: the Arizona Chamber of Commerce has given him an award and the Arizona Capitol Times named him Legislator of the Year.
43 Comments
November 24th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
LD-9 must be proud. Isn’t he the one who already resigned to run without resigning? Opened up an actual election committee?
November 24th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
And he won “Legislator of the Year” from the Arizona Capitol Times?
November 24th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Why do I get the feeling that the awards, the committee…things to keep the bombastic gentleman from LD-9 happy…or quiet? LOL It’s worked like a charm so far, boys. Keep those awards comin’!
November 25th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Questioning whether Burn’s was drunk or just dim, calling Gov. Brewer “Accidental” or “No Plan Jan,” and the general mocking of Republican’s is fun, but I does nothing to advance our argument or perspective.
This whole circus is overshadowing deep cuts our children’s education and our states social services. We lost this round folks and we’ll probably lose the next one too. The game plan needs to change and our attitudes might be a great place to start.
November 25th, 2009 at 4:21 am
I disagree Victor, mocking these people and calling them out is exactly what needs to be done to make the public aware of what clowns they have “representing” them in state government. The real problem is Democrats have just been too nice. Time for that to end.
November 25th, 2009 at 4:34 am
The average voter’s eyes glaze over when faced with complex policy arguments. Republicans have always understood that and that’s why they win.
November 25th, 2009 at 7:25 am
Victor-
I’d take your point if this was a “lone nut,” but he’s got the respect of his colleagues and the political establishment in this state. The thinking behind his rant is, unfortunately, what passes for policy analysis too often up there.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:06 am
FYI: Barnes is in LD 7, not 9. I think he is facing a primary for Senate with Barto, so enjoy these rants while they last because this session could be the last for the Democrats favorite private eye.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:16 am
What a nut case, and I have to say – he looks like he is dressed to work in the back yard for the day.
November 25th, 2009 at 9:21 am
These folks think the only problem with his speech is that he apologized:
http://www.gilacourier.com/?p=4608
November 25th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
VW:
Well, we have a part-time, amateur legislature (by law– term limits have gotten rid of most of the people who knew what they were doing,) and we pay them $24,000 per year so what do you expect?
The fact that these clowns are making the decisions that have a huge impact on the lives of all of the rest of the people in the state, now that’s scary.
November 25th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Ray Barnes or Grandpa Simpson? The similarity is uncanny.
November 26th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Donna,
Grandpa Simpson is a cartoon.
Ray Barnes is creating laws that the rest of us have to live by.
November 27th, 2009 at 8:05 am
It’s time to get the lead out of TUSD !! This district must begin putting greater resources into the classroom and get the waste and duplication out of 1010.
Concentrate on kids not administrators.
The voters in Tucson saw through their charade earlier in November when they turned down TUSD’s bond election issues. What did TUSD turn around and do about 3 weeks later? They bought the same new technology the voters had just turned down in one of TUSD’s election issues.
Educators ( I’m talking administrators not classroom teachers ) who instill honesty in their students ought to try the same thing themselves and stop name calling anyone who tries to make positive change in our rotten education set up where kids don’t count as much as administrators and red tape .
Ray Barnes may not have been the messenger some would select to comment on the state of education in Arizona ( with his unfortunate digression ) but he did strike a raw nerve on waste , duplication and the inadequacies of our education system which will need to be addressed by the adults in the room in the 2010 legislative session if the state budget is to be handled sensibly.
Educated population = Prosperous state.
It is time we finally fix education so our the students and our state gets value for their tax dollars.
November 27th, 2009 at 8:10 am
Bruce-
So, are you seriously considering Ray Barnes one of the adults in the room?
November 27th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Tedski,
Are you seriously considering Bruce Ash one of the adults in the room?
November 27th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Ted,
Thank you for posting this shocking video.
I wish someone who the Rs respect would teach them how to be thoughtful professionals. Mr. Barnes doesn’t seem to appreciate the enormous responsibility he agreed to when the voters elected him.
It saddens me that so many floor debates digress into tirades like this by ideologues. They could get so much more done for ALL the people of Arizona by engaging instead in an eloquent and persuasive explanation of their positions.
Am I asking too much from our Arizona brethren?
November 27th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Tim, the problem isn’t the inability of people like Ray Barnes to offer an eloquent explanation of GOP positions. It’s that the positions themselves are horrific. The Goldwater Institute has plenty of glib, articulate spokesmodels on staff to put a pseudo-intellectual and socially palatable gloss on their cruel brand of supply side hogwash, but it doesn’t make it feel any better to the child who gets a lousy education and can’t read at grade level or the disabled person who gets her meager supplement that allows her to stay in her own home cut.
November 27th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Bruce, why don’t you consider Ray Barnes to be a desired spokesperson? How does he differ in any meaningful way (positions he espouses, willful ignorance, even down to the malapropisms) as a spokesperson for the GOP and conservatives from Sarah Palin or Michele Bachmann? Is it because he isn’t as telegenic? Surely you’re not going to suggest that conservatives are culturally sensitive to sexual minorities all of a sudden.
November 27th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Let’s not get caught up in who Ray Barnes is or isn’t . I didn’t vote for him but alot of people have elected him in his home district who feel he has done a good job.
What we have been doing with education is not very pretty. We waste a bunch of money every year repeating the same old mistakes.
Give the classrooms back to TEACHERS. Pay them PROPERLY for positive outcomes.
Get red tape and political correctness out of schools.
Raise up the expectations we have for students. Create new working relationships between teachers and parents.
Stop making excuses and get the proper dollars back in the class room where it belongs.
Let’s stop the name calling–the real issue is how we deliver education to the citizens of this state.While some of you point your finger of disapproval against conservatives perhaps it is high time everyone look at the dreadful state the education industry is in because of the liberals who have run it into a ditch for decades while blaming their shortcomings on the evil conservatives.
November 27th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Bruce, you didn’t vote for Barnes but you did support whomever his equivalent was in your district. You also supported the McCain ticket, which included Sarah Palin. You had no criticism, that I’m aware of, with the way Tom Horne expanded the AZ Dept. of Ed. cabinet to stack it with cronies paid six figure salaries. You act like top-heavy bureaucracies are an invention of liberals when plain observation shows that is not the case.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:33 am
Bruce,
Educators ( I’m talking administrators not classroom teachers ) who instill honesty in their students ought to try the same thing themselves
OK, and would you agree that perhaps the legislature might lead the way and cut their own staffing/budget by at least the percentage they are forcing on county governments and other agencies throughout the state?
I agree that leadership begins at the top, but in the case of the AZ legislature it is about cutting everyone else but themselves.
November 28th, 2009 at 8:14 am
The writers are missing the point here.
We are not talking about the staff of AZ legislature , the 2008 Presidential election or Tom Horne. Let’s keep on topic and not diffuse the issue.
The issues are the bloated administration, the duplication of efforts, the red tape, taking good teachers out of the classroom ( because they can’t make enough $$ making what they love to do ), reducing the foot print of the FEDS in local education, reduce and over a short time eliminating a 2 tier language system, high drop out rates , low scholastic scores even though we spend more and more money.
The problem is not the money. It is the “old school ” thinking that permeates the education system. Representatives of both parties have made mistakes.
Look at a few schools like Salpointe or San Miguel in Tucson. Also Brophy or Xavier in Phoenix. Tucson Hebrew Academy ( K-8 ). Look at some of our more progressive charter schools ( even Bill Clinton is proud of them ). Look at Dr Ben Chavez charter school in the Oakland area or BASIS School in Tucson. These are schools where many of the old ideas have been shed, teachers are empowered and paid based on outcomes, parents are accountable right along with students, kids get mentoring they need and they have measured success vs the old public school model.
We can keep the old model in place with all of its problems or we can decide to make a change that might have a positive impact on our grand kids generation. We really need radical change in the schools. We spend BILLIONS here in AZ and argue how you will we don’t spend enough I will argue all day that whatever $$ you do have to spend on education if you do not spend those dollars wisely they are wasted dollars.
November 28th, 2009 at 9:40 am
“Look at a few schools like Salpointe or San Miguel in Tucson. Also Brophy or Xavier in Phoenix. Tucson Hebrew Academy ( K-8 ). Look at some of our more progressive charter schools ( even Bill Clinton is proud of them ). Look at Dr Ben Chavez charter school in the Oakland area or BASIS School in Tucson. These are schools where many of the old ideas have been shed, teachers are empowered and paid based on outcomes, parents are accountable right along with students, kids get mentoring they need and they have measured success vs the old public school model.”
You cannot compare these schools to public schools. There is a massive self selection bias toward the outcomes that this fine schools produce. The largest part of it is that most that attend these schools pay great sums of money and they do welcome low income students but typically with scholarships produced by those tuition dollars.
No problem with this except that there is no way to accept enough low income students and these schools often may take, or end up getting, the best and brightest…or even good self selected bias of the most involved parents.
You can’t compare them. Yes, there need to be innovations in teaching. Yes there needs to be more experimentation with techniques. But the problem with our schools can by no means be blamed on administrators and bloat. That makes up the smallest percentage of the budget and its just drivel that conservatives repeat over and over. Like who could ever oppose having more teachers in the classrooms and better funded ones. Who could also ever oppose taking more from administrators and giving to the classroom.
The problem has always been that this argument is used by conservatives, in conjunction with bogus Goldwater stats, to argue that funding should be LOWER. Again, you could cut all the administration in the world…and much of it is necessary administration…and you would not improve education. Folks like Bruce just dont want to pay for it with their tax dollars and hope for a private school world where generations of children will be left out, while the higher income, better parented children continue to excel and easily win the capitalist game stacked in their favor.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:16 am
No, Bruce, you don’t get to be the arbiter of what gets talked about here. The bigger picture is important because it makes the sheer incompetence and hypocrisy of the GOP – at the national, state, and local level – apparent to all. Every, and I mean every, problem we have in this country right now can be traced to your toxic conservative, reactionary ideology.
Your “ideas” for improving the schools are a whole lot of nothing. Hot air. You and your crowd have no intention of improving the public schools and never have. You want to dismantle them, or at the very least water them down, so that they produce barely literate people unable to think critically who are ripe for religious indoctrination.
November 28th, 2009 at 10:21 am
kralmajales beat me to it and said it way better than I did. Why do conservatives think they can come to progressive blogs and spout drivel and platitudes and impress us? Bruce, just because the crowd at the Tea Party eats it up doesn’t mean it’s valid nor that it makes any sense.
November 28th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I don’t understand what constitutes drivel on a progressive blog. Is it making mountains out of mole hills over a Representative saying the word bisexual or is it pointing out the fact that Arizona is at the bottom of the education system in the US?
Is drivel focusing on animosity based on party affiliation or pointing out the fact that redundency in the current structure of Arizona’s education system is wasted money?
Any State’s educatiion system needs to produce high school graduates with the basic education needed to be accepted to University. Right now Arizona isn’t doing that. Can we all agree that needs to change?
November 28th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Dare I jump in here late and ask just WTF TUSD has to do with this post? Mr. Ash, your Barnes is showing.
November 28th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
AZMama has a point. This blog isn’t about the education policy in Arizona being discussed by Representative Barnes, it’s about attacking Representative Barnes.
Let’s not get off topic here, it’s not policy that’s the point on this progressive blog, it’s animosity and personal attacks.
Let’s stay on topic here.
November 28th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Drivel
n. 1. Saliva flowing from the mouth.
2. Stupid or senseless talk.
Pretty much covers Rep. Barnes’ rant and much of what passes for “commentary” by conservative contributors to this and other progressive blogs.
And yeah, you act like an idiot on the floor of the State Legislature, people attack you for it on blogs.
November 28th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
I doubt drooling was your intended definition. Stupid or sensless was probably the one.
Examples:
-”I disagree Victor, mocking these people and calling them out is exactly what needs to be done to make the public aware of what clowns they have “representing” them in state government.”
-”Ray Barnes or Grandpa Simpson? The similarity is uncanny.”
-”Folks like Bruce just dont want to pay for it with their tax dollars and hope for a private school world where generations of children will be left out, while the higher income, better parented children continue to excel and easily win the capitalist game stacked in their favor.”
-”Your “ideas” for improving the schools are a whole lot of nothing. Hot air. You and your crowd have no intention of improving the public schools and never have. You want to dismantle them, or at the very least water them down, so that they produce barely literate people unable to think critically who are ripe for religious indoctrination.”
If this isn’t stupid, sensless talk then you’d have to actually believe that there are legislators who’s aim is to destroy the education system in Arizona in order to have a population that is ripe for religious indoctorniation and/or would be drones in an some industrial complex where Republicans are the dictators.
To twart this plan persoanl attacks need be spead near and far so the public can be aware of these conpiratorial ‘clowns’ that are representing them in State government.
If this is not stupid and sensless ‘drivel’ it would have to be defined as dilusional.
November 28th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Liberals are supposed to be thinkers, progressive thinkers, that value their education and lift people up that need a hand.
One would be very hard pressed to find that on this ‘progressive’ blog.
What is here is actual radicalism. Saul Alinski’s brand of radicalism. His is a mission of tearing it all down. When did the modern Liberal turn radical?
Saul Alinski’s ‘Rules for Radicals’ rule #5:
-”Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. It’s crual, it’s mean, but it can be effective when faced with not having a compelling arguement. The key is the ruthlessness.”
Radical or Liberal…….it’s becoming hard to distinguish a difference as the tactics are the same.
Politics is a battle of ideas. When the public sees pettiness the battle is lost. The stubborn clinging to this tactic in both blogs and in Arizona politics by Democrats will have the same result tomarrow as it did yesterday……..a Republican legislature in a State with a 65% Democrat voter registration.
November 28th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Bruxley,
Well…that wasn’t really my point. While I agree that education is an issue our state leaders better get serious about and quick, I think pointing out the crazy-train mentality at the legislature IS worth discussion. Posts like these highlight what is getting in the way of the worthwhile discussions/negotiations that are NOT being had in the state chambers – like finding a REASONABLE, bipartisan approach to BALANCING the budget, which is sorta what they are constitutionally charged with doing. Darn that pesky oath getting in the way of kissing Grover Norquist’s ass.
Had Rep. Barnes’ comments even been slightly coherent to the intent of legislation, and not another majority party tirade on public education and how the minority party is just getting it all wrong, I’d consider it worthwhile to redirect the talking points within the comment pool. Instead, Mr. Ash pulls out the old political ploy of deflecting attention off of the failures of the majority party by projecting onto the past failures of the second largest school district in the state. Mr. Ash, that’s SO played. You want the comments on this or any other blog to be relevant to issues, not “character attacks”? Then I suggest our legislative leadership starts acting with character and not AS characters in a vaudevillian sketch.
November 28th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Incidentally,
most schools have already cut administration quite a bit.
I know that at our local community college they have one vice President now doing the official duties of two (and at one salary.)
The plain fact is, that administrators have important duties and without those duties being done (whether we are talking about budgeting within the school for supplies, ordering the supplies, disciplining students or investigating allegations against teachers) then the school fails to fulfill it’s mission.
Would you care to list SPECIFIC (and real, not made up) administrators at SPECIFIC schools whose duties are ‘unnecessary?’
November 29th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Nicely said Eli…
And Bruxley, I threw out some facts. The problem is that facts that conservatives typically throw out are from bogus studies from their industry funded thinktanks…like Goldwater Institute for instance. Or they throw out tirades like those that Eli rather easily knocks down with some sense.
The education argument made by conservatives typically amounts to “more money doesn’t equal better education” and “my school’s great (located in a wealthy District like 16) why isn’t yours”
November 29th, 2009 at 9:59 am
concern troll
n. A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of “concern,” to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don’t really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.
Example: “Liberals are supposed to be thinkers, progressive thinkers, that value their education and lift people up that need a hand.
One would be very hard pressed to find that on this ‘progressive’ blog.
What is here is actual radicalism. Saul Alinski’s brand of radicalism. His is a mission of tearing it all down. When did the modern Liberal turn radical?”
Stop feeding the troll, folks.
November 29th, 2009 at 10:25 am
I find it reprehensible that all of my friends on the right, and I will graciously include Mr. Barnes, do not think long term. They want the gratification of tax cuts now, or firings of people today, without looking at long term implications…or history for that matter.
Here is something to chew on: Close to 50% of teachers leave the profession in the first five years and the most often cited reason is lack of support. Close to 50% of our teaching rank is over 55 years of age. What will our state’s education system look like in 10 years when we are competing with every other state in a REAL teacher shortage?
November 29th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Actually, RsMantra, they are thinking long term. Only they’re not admitting in public what their long term goal is. Google “Dominionism”.
November 29th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
I disagree. I think the Republican party has become the “self-gratification right now” party. Once and a while is okay but as my momma once said, “if you keep doing that you are going to go blind”
November 29th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Git yer kids out of them socialist guverment schools that are brainwashing them to warship the Kenyen Messiah. Homeskooling is the only answer. Cut off money to the guverment schools! Starve the beast!
November 29th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
That’s right, CB!
How about a full day of school including the three basics: Three hours of Glen Beck, three hours of Rush Limbaugh and three hours of Sean Hannity. All a tender young mind needs to grow on!
November 29th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
With Arizona studies provided by J.D. Hayworth, I should add.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Barnes may look and sound like a fool, but he has a point: it’s not the money; it’s the system. Eventually, people get sick of throwing money down the drain – even if it’s for education.
In fact, food is more important than education. So if the Progressive education model is correct, then shouldn’t we have a government agency that tells us where to shop for groceries?
See: http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/harris1.htm