Friday, June 15th, 2007...7:31 am
Girjalva Killed Tuffy!
If people don’t want to come out to the ball park, nobody’s gonna stop ‘em. - Yogi Bera
More silliness from our friends that post on the Star and Citizen message boards: the Tucson Sidewinders’ possible move to Reno is all Raúl Grijalva’s fault. Yep. It’s a plan he and his reconquista buddies hatched on the way to a meeting with Michael Moore and George Soros.
The seeds for this theory come from way back in the mid-1990’s, when the new ball park was first planned. Many wanted a stadium downtown, but the Board of Supervisors decided to put it at its current location on Ajo Way. Not a decision I agreed with, by the way. Yes, Grijalva was a member of the board when this happened, and was part of the majority that voted for the location. But laying this entirely on Grijalva or even the location of Tucson Electric Park is ridiculous.
People who were mad about the stadium location at the time came up with a whole raft of theories about what group would get alienated by some set of decisions about the stadium. One person even told me back in 1998 that the location alienated local black ministers (don’t ask me to explain this one, it was as much of a stretch as it sounds like). Despite all of this, the folks that want to come out to see spring training were able to find the stadium. However, when it came to the Baby Snakes, all of a sudden there were dozens of excuses.
The claims from Star and Citizen posters that a downtown location would have been more lucrative is bizarre, given these same folks rant that nobody they know goes downtown and they would never be caught dead there every time Rio Nuevo is brought up.
I’ve had conversations with county bureaucrats over the years and when the Sidewinders would come up, one would get the impression that they were less than enthused. Spring training would get all the official hype, but the Sidewinders were the forgotten kid brother. It seemed bizarre to me that they were more excited about attracting major league teams to temporarily camp here than in supporting a local team with local ownership. Without the Sidewinders, the multi-million dollar park would only be used by the public for one month a year and be empty the rest of the time.
The only thing more striking than the lack of enthusiasm from the county was the lack of enthusiasm from the public. Unfortunately, this has become our local pattern. We don’t seem to support our local institutions, but are happy to complain that we don’t have this or that. Low attendance is what killed the team, even a recent homestand featuring a recovering Randy Johnson didn’t seem to get the public out. The folks who are blaming Grijalva, Chuck Huckleberry or whoever else they have a gripe with should be asked, have you been to a game?
NB - Further rants and raves about the Sidewinders and Toros can be found on my other blog.
27 Comments
June 15th, 2007 at 9:54 am
And even if the ballpark had been located Downtown, it would been placed on the west bank of the Rio Santa Cruz and the seats would still have been empty. The bitchin’ and moanin’ supposed baseball fans would have complained it’s on the West Side. In short, they just love to hear themselves kevetch.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Tucson always has been, and always will be a MINOR league town. You can’t even keep a AAA baseball team. Pretty pathetic if you ask me?
June 15th, 2007 at 10:27 am
I still have a Tucson Toros ballcap and wear it around Phoenix. Usually I get blank stares, but every now and then someone shouts out: “Go Toros!”
I miss Tuffy too, Tedski.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Well, that’s profound insight, Tony. Any more pearls? You realize LA doesn’t have a pro football team. So I guess through your intellectual prism, LA is not a major league city, say like Phoenix? Or Denver? Seattle?
June 15th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Damn you Democrats!!! This is all a plot to promote roller derby to the exclusion of all other sports, and Grijalva’s fingerprints are all over it.
Apple pie will probably be next on the list, probably followed by a demotion of our Basketball team to Sun Devil status.
This wouldn’t happen under Republican leadership.
June 15th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Perhaps Tucsonans just don’t like slow-paced baseball in the hot summer that much?
Could we somehow fit a pro futbol (soccer) team in to TEP Park? Seems like the field is too small, but it would be nice.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Actually, Hi Corbett had the largest outfield in PCL (and one larger than many major league parks). Back in 1999, we were able to put a FIFA regulation sized soccer pitch in the outfield and had a couple of Tucson Amigos games there. Since the grass was cut to MLB regs (as per the Rockies), we got compliments from visiting teams about how much they loved the field.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Phoenix doesn’t rate a college basketball team, or a pro football team for that matter.
I’ll miss the Sidewinders being in Tucson, but I am the really the only person I know for whom that is true.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Back to Kansas for you Toto! You wanna be’s in Tucson wish you were Phoenix. Someday you MAY be one of our suburbs…….
June 15th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Phoenix has football team? Didn’t know.
June 15th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Teski: Yeah, it’s a semi-pro team. It provides tackle fodder to get the NFL teams ready to play each other.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Oooo, the wannabe mobster writer wants to throw down some written chingazos. Re-read my post. I don’t care if you trash Tucson. I question your logic, assuming you have some. Tucson will always be a minor league town and, worse, can’t keep a minor league team. I’m glad we’re a minor league town. Again, I assume you consider LA a non-major city city because it doesn’t have a NFL team. C’mon. Answer the question and don’t go to Kansas for an answer.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Actually this is one right up my alley, considering I am a former sportscaster (who by the way was doing live shots from the proposed location when it was announced and thinking to myself “why in the hell are they going to put a ballpark out here?”)
For poo-pooing a downtown ballpark, I would have to take issue with that. If you take a look at Oklahoma City, Salt Lake City, Sacramento and Fresno to name a few PCL locations, they have built downtown ballparks and they have helped to revitalize the area. What kills me is the lack of proper planning when coming up with the site. Any decent planner will tell you; when you build a ballpark in a location it must become a “destination” to work.
(By destination, I mean shops, restaurants and other amentities.)
The people who planned TEP forgot that one little item, thus the location as a baseball stadium stinks. A downtown location would have been a real boom to the D.O.A. Rio Nuevo.
Another item going against TEP as a baseball stadium is the design. It is just another spring training park. There is absolutely nothing to distingush it from places like OKC. The Brickyard in OKC is a fabulous stadium which actually captures a feel for the game.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Toto, you must have gotten some of that tainted dog food. This has nothing to do with LA. You can’t even keep a minor league team, subsidized by the Arizona Diamondbacks (BTW, a Phoenix based team). Who cares about LA? You should embrace what you have, you may never get another team back. The Phoenix area has all four major sports leagues, hosts Super Bowls & National Championship games. Nice try Toto, no Milk Bone for you tonight!
Forgetaboutit!!!
June 16th, 2007 at 5:41 am
Isn’t just wonderful on all these “Tucsonans” who seem to know something about this city, especially how one stadium in a certain location would have made a difference. To those individuals I pose the following: “From 1997 to the present, have you been to the downtown area of the City of Tucson?” Most answers would be no. Why? Because for most of the area, it is closed after 5 p.m. weekdays and especially after 5 p.m. on Friday. Next, can these “Tucsonans” state whom the Sidewinders defeated in the AAA Championship in 2006 and where the championship was played? Probably not. So what’s the point, simple, to point fingers at the location of a ball park isn’t the answer, you will need to go further to answer this question of blame for failure. Start with the media, who’ve treated the team as an afterthought, regardless of location. Second, the population, since a lot of individuals have moved to Tucson have “loyalties” to sports teams in other locations. Third, the attitude toward professional sports in Tucson, since with the departure of the baseball franchise looming, it’s failed since the leaders of this city still think of the “Old Pueblo” as a college-town, despite the sprawl and increase in the populace. Plain and simple, the baseball team didn’t draw significantly at Hi Corbett nor at TEP. Something else to add to this, the U of A women’s softball team won their eighth national championship, how many people heard the game on radio. Zilch. Why? The U of A team doesn’t have a radio contract!
June 16th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Gamera offers some insightful and wise comments above…and anyone who does not recall how Dan Eckstrom (supported by Raul Grijalva) strongarmed the location of TEP has selective amnesia.
The clarion call made by the South Side supervisors at the time was that their constituents deserved the bennies that would come from having access to TEP’s facilities when they were being used by the ‘Winders or by spring training teams. The other supervisors grudgingly went along, despite pleas from prescient observers such as Democratic local businessman and former major leaguer, Pat Darcy.
The die was cast when those decisions were made. There is nothing to do after or before a ‘Winders or spring training game at TEP. What are your options? Grabbing a meal at the Kino Hospital cafeteria?
Can we be honest on this site and admit that two Democrats analyzed the situation poorly and were selfish to boot? If TEP had been downtown, there would have been both room and incentive for bars, restaurants and shops to flourish in both the summer and spring. Locating it where it is was a lousy choice that definitely contributed to this decision by the ‘Winders.
By the way, I have been to TEP at least a dozen times since it opened, including the last three Fourths of July, so spare me any invective about not supporting baseball. Eckstrom and Grijalva screwed up. Admit it already!
June 16th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Rex you are correct in saying that the mistake should be admitted to.
This one decision by the Pima County BOS has slowly snowballed into what we have here today: a bad location and no surrounding businesses.
Mark my words: if the new owners pull up stakes and move the Sidewinders to Reno-Tucson will never have a AAA baseball team here again.
Why?
Any team ownership who is looking to move to Tucson will play “Let’s Make a Deal” to bring their team to the Old Pueblo. On the table will be: a new publicly funded downtown stadium, consession rights and major tax breaks. First off the city will have to float the bonding for the stadium and if you think that will be an easy sale to the folks here-you are dilusional. They will still be smarting from this latest debacle and will not want the City Council to move on that issue. Next is finding the land available for a downtown location complete with available public parking.
Just look at the amount of headaches the new arena has brought to the Council and people of Tucson.
As for the future uses for TEP, I would envision turning it into a massive multi-use sports venue. With the stadium itself being used for Spring Training (however long the D-Backs decide to stay here), concerts and yes, soccer. We are going to have to get our money out of it, we might as well be thinking ahead of the curve.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
To little tony, you’re right. My posts weren’t about LA. They were about your shallow logic. Again, using your logic, the more professional teams in a city, the greater the city. Phoenix trumps LA. Right. Phoenix is a wannabe big city. Never will be taken seriously because Phoenix is shallow, has little history and tradition, and is recreation of other places.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Toto did Dorothy give you some bad crack? “Phoenix is a wannabe big city”? Where have you been pal? Phoenix is THE place to be. 5th largest city in America. Guess you Tucsoners can’t handle the truth?
As a great man once said: Curly (from ‘City Slickers’ - “I Shit Bigger than you”!
June 17th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Phoenix sucks. There really is no other way to describe it. It’s this big Goliath. It’s ugly. It has no soul. It’s just CAP water and the brown cloud. If not having a baseball team is the price I have to pay to not be like them, so be it. Who in the world is actually proud of Phoenix? If you had never been to Arizona and you were asked to come up with one distinguishing feature about it, one thing that was unique you couldn’t do it. The only answer would be: hot. So, you’re right, mafia guy, we’ll never be as big as you. If that’s how you judge quality then have at it. Try as hard as you might to ape LA you’ll never make it (except for lousy traffic and smog). We’ll happily stay in Southern Arizona and give the winning margin for state wide candidates (ask Janet if we’re relevant). I’ll take the best Mexican food in the Southwest (or quite possibly the world) over being the biggest. I’ll take having the oldest and best university in the state over the dim-witted party school in Tempe. In exchange we’ll be the margin of victory for your governor and AG. We’ll run your state Senate and our stubborn moderate state legislative Republicans will hold your budgets hostage for ever.
As for Rex, he’s right. This is Eckstrom’s boondoggle. There have been others (South Tucson, paved alley ways, a laundry list of bad political appointments, etc.)
June 17th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
BB,
Who is proud of Phoenix? Everyone who lives here that’s who. I was born and raised here. I lived in Phoenix when there wasn’t even a Black Canyon Freeway. You all who live in the Socialist Republic of Tucson can continue your JEALOUSY of Phoenix. Phoenix is the fastest growing city in the United States. BTW, your “legislators” are so great, 7 of them voted with us. Tucson will continue to be a minor league city. Get used to it!
June 17th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
We may be a minor league city but at least we didn’t lobby for the Cardinals football team to come to our city!
June 17th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
I’m so sick and tired of hearing about how much better UofA is than ASU. I’m pretty sure it’s UofA that’s losing athletic scholarships because of academic performance and not ASU. Furthermore, while UofA may be the first public university in the state, it wasn’t the first public institution of higher learning. Tempe Normal School (currently ASU) was established about two weeks before UofA in 1885.
I’m from right in between the two cities and I prefer to head down to Tucson for spring training games because it’s usually less crowded. That’s not a good sign. That’s like wondering why a grocery store closed down and you telling your neighbor that you can’t believe it and that you used to love going over there because it was never crowded. I know the Sidewinders aren’t the same as spring training but you’d think they’d have a good following since it’s really the only pro team down there. It’s pretty sad and since I’m not from Tucson, I won’t point fingers but I will say that a downtown ballpark would have shaved about 10-15 minutes of travel time for me down to a ball game.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Just a few facts about UofA and ASU:
ASU
63,000 students
56% 6 year graduation rate
22:1 student-faculty ratio
1083 SAT average
12,081 degrees awarded in 2004-5
UofA
37,000 students
59% 6 year graduation rate
19:1 student-faculty ratio
1230 SAT average
7,926 degrees awarded in 2004-5
So, if you think bigger is better, ASU has the crown.
If you think smarter counts for anything, it’s UofA.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
best old PCL rivalry:
Dukes-Toros. Nothing like it.
June 19th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Eli-
To be fair, the best “old PCL rivalry” would probably be the San Francisco Seals v Los Angeles Angels, since that one included a very young Joe DiMaggio.
June 19th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
To be even more fair the best old PCL rivalry would have been the San Francisco Seals vs. the Oakland Oaks.
DiMaggio also played for the Seals where he had a 61 game hitting streak, while his brother Vince played for the both the Seal and the Oaks. BTW, the Seals franchise eventually became the Sidewinders. When the NY Giants came to San Franciso in 1958 the Seals moved to Phoenix and became the Giants and the then the Firebirds, which move to Tucson when the Diamondbacks joined the National League.
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